Public Discussion About Absolute

[HendryTan]

A. There is a guest & "his friends" who accused us of biasness in deleting guest postings in the Absolute thread.

I have explained our position on deleting of guest-posting in this Absolute Thread on 16 Aug 2009.

I'll repeat that post again.

http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413&view=findpost&p=123722

1. I am moderating this Absolute thread very very heavily.

2. I wrote a PM to Absolute a short while back to explain our stand.

I assume they understand the issue.

3. I am currently only allowing postings (positive or negative) in this Absolute thread by SIGNED-IN-READERS whom I am satisfied are REAL BW Readers !

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Moderator

B. Our REAL Regular BW readers and even Absolute Management, whom I PM an explanation , did NOT object on this position. This arrangement has created peace and UN-Biased sharing of information in this thread.

C. To guest and friends (whose posting I archived), you need to convince me that you are

- a genuine BW reader

- does NOT have Vested Interest (either way)

- have the best interest of the BW forum, our readers and the moderators

at heart.

Based on your postings (which I have deleted/archived), personally I remain skeptical.

D. Status Quo.

Cheers !

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Moderator

[Absolute]

Dear Abs Members and Supporters

You have read what Moderator Hendry Tan wrote earlier

Absolute strongly suggest these pointers

1) Register yourself here in blowing wind with an ID before you write any reviews or comments

2) Write directly to Absolute Management by clicking onto the Absolute profile in blowing wind and just write to us

3) Write directly to Absolute Management by email: info@absolute.sg

4) Join our facebook and comment there: http://www.facebook.com/absolutesingapore

Absolute management will reply all enquiries from the above pointers

Absolute Management respects all Moderator Hendry Tan decisions but perhaps to be fair,

this policy issue by Moderator Hendry Tan should be applied to all Sauna business threads exisiting here

Thank you

Absolute

Absolute Quality & Service Assured

[Absolute]

Hello Moderator Hendry Tan

I remembered there was a registered id earlier on, commenting and asking some questions, why was that deleted too?

Absolute

[HendryTan]

1. Thanks for making an effort to engage and communicate.

We can now communicate with some People who represents Absolute.

2. I have archived that post you referred to. Because I am satisfied that the post is NOT done by a REAL BW Reader. He just joined 1-2 days and then immediately posts some "suspiciously leading" request. (A very similar tatic used in some of those massage threads)

It disturbs me that while your good office reaches out to communicate, some of "your supporter" works in parallel in bad faith.

3. I have a long day today in the office. (We are volunteer mods)

But I will formally respond to your open letter on "Fairness" in due course.

4. Until all these matters are settled one way or another,

please halt ALL Absolute marketing activities on Blowing Wind Forum with immedate effect.

5. Please treat (4) as an official notification.

Yours Faithfully,

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Mod

[Absolute]

1. Thanks for making an effort to engage and communicate.

We can now communicate with some People who represents Absolute.

Absolute management have kept quiet all these while as not to get involved until now because we just wrote a messenge to tell our Abs members what to do that is appropriate but it seems the moderator felt other wise.

2. I have archived that post you referred to. Because I am satisfied that the post is NOT done by a REAL BW Reader. He just joined 1-2 days and then immediately posts some "suspiciously leading" request. (A very similar tatic used in some of those massage threads)

Absolute Management see such new registered id all the time in other sauna threads posting some "suspiciously leading" request, so would they be consider real bw readers? This is a public forum for all new gays to join, surely its just not the same old few members only right? So what is a real bw reader?

It disturbs me that while your good office reaches out to communicate, some of "your supporter" works in parallel in bad faith.

3. I have a long day today in the office. (We are volunteer mods)

But I will formally respond to your open letter on "Fairness" in due course.

Absolute management have kept quiet all these while but no doubt there is a certain unfairness feelings around now. All other sauna threads should have the same treatment as what is happening in Absolute thread then.

4. Until all these matters are settled one way or another,

please halt ALL Absolute marketing activities on Blowing Wind Forum with immedate effect.

Sure, Absolute Management respects that, but please allow 1 final advertisement then to show some fairness

We look forward to your kind fairness with regards to all the above statements and lets see if matters will be resolved.

Absolute

Absolute Quality & Service Assured

5. Please treat (4) as an official notification.

Yours Faithfully,

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Mod

[Guest Rasin]

Hey, it looks like my reply that was deleted...

Did not want to cause any controvesy but just wanted to share my experience about my reaction to the event and share my skin reation so that readers can avoid going thru that kind of "trauma"and be prepared during the next foam party.

Also I felt it would be a good feedback to Abs so that maybe alternative soaps can be used for future events as I would definately like to join in the furture foam events.

I do have a registration on this site but did not sign in b'cus when you are discussing something embarassing that happened to your "little brother" you will not want the whole world to identify you mah.....

Anyway, for what ever reason you have Henry, will respect your decision as you guys rule this site.

Thanks Thaiboyz for the tip!

[imchaser]

Absolute management have kept quiet all these while as not to get involved until now because we just wrote a messenge to tell our Abs members what to do that is appropriate but it seems the moderator felt other wise.

Absolute Management see such new registered id all the time in other sauna threads posting some "suspiciously leading" request, so would they be consider real bw readers? This is a public forum for all new gays to join, surely its just not the same old few members only right? So what is a real bw reader?

Absolute management have kept quiet all these while but no doubt there is a certain unfairness feelings around now. All other sauna threads should have the same treatment as what is happening in Absolute thread then.

Absolute

Absolute Quality & Service Assured

I found this reply from Absolute is rather absurb! Like, they treat this thread like their free advertisement tool every five freaking minutes, and now they question the moderators intention? am i missing something logical here?

Sure, Absolute Management respects that, but please allow 1 final advertisement then to show some fairness

We look forward to your kind fairness with regards to all the above statements and lets see if matters will be resolved.

Final advertisement? Aiyor, hello, why so hard sell? Didnt u just post all the freaking banners like 100 times already? What is this, spam?

[Guest an annoyed reader]

Hi Moderator (Mr Tan), I respect your decision to be fair. You're indeed a most hardworking moderator. I don't think anyone will doubt that. We can see 'suspicious' posts are deleted very promptly.

However, other than deleting my post, you have also suspended my account (6 October, 2009 5:32 PM) and stopped me from signing in!! I wasn't able to sign in this morning. This is most unfair!

I was told:

• You BW account was flagged as a "Duplicate Account".

How do you identify a "Duplicate Account"? I only have one account with BW. So, how do you prove something which does not exist??? I think you are just 聪明反被聪明误 (cōng ming fǎn bèi cōng ming wù).

Thinking that the originator of the post is a "Duplicate Account", you suspended the account of the originator. This is just 杯弓蛇影 (literally: See the reflection of a bow in the cup and think it's a snake). You are being overly overly suspicious (paranoid).

If you think this is a "Duplicate Account", you can check! I don’t know how you check, but I am simply amazed. You can prove something which does not exist. What you are doing can be called指鹿為馬 (zhǐ lù weí mǎ) (Translation: Point at a deer and call it a horse), meaning “deliberately twisting the truth”. I am not sure if there’s another account also called h2o? …… but you are the moderator, so you can always check. How sure are you in saying you have a reasonable doubt?? I think standard technical IT answers like “You BW account was flagged as a Duplicate Account" is not really convincing.

问了是5分钟的傻瓜。但是，不问永远是一个傻瓜

('He who asks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not ask remains a fool forever.')

To rephrase this: 'He who checks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not check remains a fool forever.'

愚者不問，問者不愚。 The fool does not ask, he who asks is no fool

To rephrase this: The fool does not check, he who checks is no fool.

While "the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.", but it is also unwise to jump to conclusions. I really how certain you are in saying I have "Duplicate Account". Your barometer of "certainty" is really weird.

• We do not encourage people/organizations to create different BW accounts to talk up particular topics.

So, how do you identify a genuine BW reader. You want me to write a thesis after reading through this entire forum to show I have no vested interest (either way) or to prove my understanding of this forum. … this is absurd! Readers of this forum are not dumb, they can differentiate genuine and fake readers. They are not babies, where you have to do the judging for them!!

I don’t know how sure you are in saying I am not a genuine reader, but the difference between an event being almost sure and sure is the same as the subtle difference between something happening with probability 1 and happening always. Just because something is common (happening with probability) doesn’t mean it is happening always. Thus, one can never definitively say that something which is common is always true.

• Based on your postings (which I have deleted/archived), personally I remain skeptical.

You are overly skeptical. While doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. Certainty is not always possible. … But you have really created inconvenience for genuine reader like me. So, how do you want me to pretend to be a genuine reader? …. So, must I register myself, and to act that I am real, should I refuse to post, and just ….. … ????? In situations where there is doubt, Mr Tan, you rather believe your doubt. Not that this is wrong, but this really creates inconvenience for genuine reader. Please do not let your lack of sureness of an alleged fact bring inconvenience for genuine reader. Your skepticism shows your distrust of people. I must say it is time your perceived "reality" (I am not a REAL BW reader) be checked and confirmed!

So, does this long post show I am a genuine REAL BW reader. Do you think the staff/ supporter of Absolute would be so free to reply you with this long story!!!!

If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.

[Guest Guest]

I found this reply from Absolute is rather absurb! Like, they treat this thread like their free advertisement tool every five freaking minutes, and now they question the moderators intention? am i missing something logical here?

Final advertisement? Aiyor, hello, why so hard sell? Didnt u just post all the freaking banners like 100 times already? What is this, spam?

Others Saunas are doing the same things ???

Keybox, Shogun, Tenmen & others...

Why not ???

[imchaser]

Others Saunas are doing the same things ???

Keybox, Shogun, Tenmen & others...

Why not ???

Yeah they did, but not like every 5 minutes like u guys! Sometimes too hard sell can really put people off. Why, too fierce competition from "the other" new sauna?

[Guest an annoyed reader]

I wasn’t very clear in my previous post. So, I rephrase some of my sentences. In case, Mr Tan say I am a not a serious reader of BW. I am very serious now!!!

Hi Moderator Henry Tan, I respect your decision to be fair. You're indeed a most hardworking moderator. I don't think anyone will doubt that. We can see 'suspicious' posts are deleted very promptly.

However, I am writing this post to enquiry why my account was suspended. Yes, having one’s account is nothing great. I can always use a different email account to register again, right???!!!

But I am really annoyed by your move. That’s why I am writing this long post. Other than deleting my post, you have also suspended my account (on 6 October, 2009 5:32 PM). I wasn't able to sign in this morning. This is most unfair!

At the outset of my argument, I would like to say that:

a) I do not belong to or are associated with any organizations (be it Absolute, keybox, one seven, etc.).

b) I have no vested interest (either way) in any of the establishment that I have mentioned. Whether they are closed down (though it is a pity!!) or have poor business, it is none of my business.

c) I did not create different BW accounts. I only created one account.

d) I did not talk up particular topics. I only posted one post!!!

I was told:

• You BW account was flagged as a "Duplicate Account".

Q) How do you identify a "Duplicate Account"? I only have one account with BW, but you say I have a "Duplicate Account"? So, how do you prove something which does not exist??? I think you are just 聪明反被聪明误 (in case you can’t read Chinese: cōng ming fǎn bèi cōng ming wù).

Thinking that my account is a "Duplicate Account", you suspended my account. This is not only unfair, but also杯弓蛇影 (literally: See the reflection of a bow in the cup and think it's a snake). You are being overly overly suspicious (paranoid).

If you think this is a "Duplicate Account", you can check! I don’t know how you check, but I am simply amazed. You can prove something which does not exist. What you are doing can be called指鹿為馬 (zhǐ lù weí mǎ) (Translation: Point at a deer and call it a horse), meaning “deliberately twisting the truth”. I am not sure if there’s another account also called h2o? …… but you are the moderator, so you can always check. How sure are you in saying you have a reasonable doubt?? I think standard technical IT answers like “You BW account was flagged as a Duplicate Account" is not really convincing. I am totally clear I only have one BW account. I am not so free as to create so many account.

问了是5分钟的傻瓜。但是，不问永远是一个傻瓜

('He who asks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not ask remains a fool forever.')

To rephrase this statement for this context: 'He who checks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not check remains a fool forever.'

愚者不問，問者不愚。 The fool does not ask, he who asks is no fool

To rephrase this statement for this context: The fool does not check, he who checks is no fool.

While "the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.", it is also unwise to jump to conclusions. I am not sure how certain you are in saying I have "Duplicate Account". Your barometer of "certainty" needs to be checked!!

• We do not encourage people/organizations to create different BW accounts to talk up particular topics.

So Mr Tan, how do you identify a genuine BW reader. You want me to write a thesis after reading through this entire forum to show I have no vested interest (either way) or to prove my understanding of the set up of this forum. … this is absurd! Readers of this forum are not dumb, they can differentiate genuine and fake readers. They are not babies, where you have to do all the judging for them!! The moderator’s credibility needs to be checked!!

I don’t know how sure you are in saying I am not a genuine reader, but the difference between an event being almost sure and sure is the same as the subtle difference between something happening with probability and happening always. Just because something is common (happening with probability) doesn’t mean it is happening always. Thus, one can never definitively say that something which is common is always true.

• Based on your postings (which I have deleted/archived), personally I remain skeptical.

You are overly skeptical. While doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. Certainty is not always possible. … But you have really created inconvenience for genuine reader like me. So, are you saying I must pretend to be a genuine reader. How, then, do you want me to pretend to be a genuine reader? …. Must I register myself, and to act that I am real, should I refuse to post, and just act noble ….. … ????? In situations where there is doubt, Mr Tan, you rather believe your doubt. Not that this is wrong, but this really creates inconvenience for genuine reader. Please do not let your lack of sureness of an alleged fact bring inconvenience for the genuine reader. Your skepticism shows your distrust of people. I must say it is time your perceived "reality" (I am not a REAL BW reader) be checked and confirmed!

So, does this long post show I am a genuine REAL BW reader. Do you think the staff/ supporter of Absolute would be so free to reply you with this long story!!!! I just feel it’s unfair! … really annoys me!!!

If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.

[Guest hokkien-beng]

Some stupid idiot deleted my posting this morning. I bet you going to delete this posting also!

[castaway]

Some stupid idiot deleted my posting this morning. I bet you going to delete this posting also!

No new to me, my post was once "molested" :whistle:

power in their hands , just accept it

[HendryTan]

I temporary split this thread out of the Absolute Sauna thread at http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413 . The discussion here thus needs to be read together with the above thread to be have "head-and-tail".

Cheers !

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Mod

[Guest an annoyed BW reader]

My post was deleted, but that was expected. I saved my post!! … so that I can post it here again!! But I have reword some of my sentences so as to my make my stand and argument clearer! I really hope Mr Henry Tan can post a reply here!!

Hi Moderator Henry Tan, I respect your decision to try to be fair. You're indeed a most hardworking moderator. I don't think anyone will doubt that. We can see 'suspicious' posts being deleted very promptly.

However, I am writing this post to enquiry why my account was suspended. Yes, having one’s account suspended is nothing great. I can always use a different email account to register again, right???!!! However, I am really annoyed by this move. That’s why I am writing this long post. Other than deleting my post, you have also suspended my account (on 6 October). Yes, you’re are the moderator, that’s nothing I can do about it. But, this is most unfair!

At the outset of my argument, I would like to say that:

a) I do not belong to or are associated with any organizations (be it Absolute, keybox, one seven, etc.).

b) I have no vested interest (either way) in any of the establishment that I have mentioned.

c) I did not create different BW accounts. I only created one account.

d) I did not talk up particular topics. I only posted one post!!!

Henry Tan wrote:

• You BW account was flagged as a "Duplicate Account".

Q) How do you identify a "Duplicate Account"? I only have one account with BW, but you say I have a "Duplicate Account"? So, how do you prove something which does not exist??? I think this is a case of 聪明反被聪明误??? (in case you can’t read Chinese: cōng ming fǎn bèi cōng ming wù). I dare to say this as I really have only one account with BW. No time to create so many accounts! Do you think I am very free, don't need to work or study!! But I will try to find time to reason when others accuse me or annoy me!!

Thinking that my account is a "Duplicate Account", you suspended my account. This is not only unfair, but also 杯弓蛇影 (literally: See the reflection of a bow in the cup and think it's a snake). You are being overly overly suspicious (paranoid).

If you think this is a "Duplicate Account", you can check! I don’t know how you check, but I am simply amazed. You can prove something which does not exist. What you are doing can be called指鹿為馬 (Translation: Point at a deer and call it a horse), meaning “deliberately twisting the truth”. I am not sure if there’s another account with the same name? …… you are the moderator, so you can always check. How sure are you in saying you have a reasonable doubt?? I think standard technical IT answers like “You BW account was flagged as a Duplicate Account" is not really convincing. I am totally clear I only have one BW account. I am not so free as to create so many account.

问了是5分钟的傻瓜。但是，不问永远是一个傻瓜

('He who asks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not ask remains a fool forever.')

To rephrase this statement for this context: 'He who checks is a fool for five minutes. But he who does not check remains a fool forever.'

愚者不問，問者不愚。 The fool does not ask, he who asks is no fool

To rephrase this statement for this context: The fool does not check, he who checks is no fool.

While "the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.", it is also unwise to jump to conclusions. I am not sure how certain you are in saying I have "Duplicate Account". Your barometer of "certainty" needs to be checked!!

Henry Tan wrote:

• We do not encourage people/organizations to create different BW accounts to talk up particular topics.

So Mr Tan, how do you identify a genuine BW reader. You want me to write a thesis after reading through this entire forum to show I have no vested interest (either way) or to prove my understanding of the set up of this forum. … this is absurd! The readers of this forum are not dumb, they are adults who can differentiate genuine and fake readers. They are not babies, where you have to do all the judging for them!! The moderator’s credibility needs to be checked!!

I don’t know how sure you are in saying I am not a genuine reader, but the difference between an event being almost sure and sure is the same as the subtle difference between something happening with probability and happening always. Just because something is common (happening with probability) doesn’t mean it is happening always. Thus, one can never definitively say that something which is common is always true.

Henry Tan wrote:

• Based on your postings (which I have deleted/archived), personally I remain skeptical.

You are overly skeptical. While doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. Certainty is not always possible. … But you have really created inconvenience for genuine reader like me. So, are you saying I must pretend to be a genuine reader. How, then, do you want me to pretend to be a genuine reader? …. Must I register myself, and to act that I am real, should I refuse to post, wait for a long long time (6 months!?!)..., and just act noble, then finally upload my first post ….. … ????? This is absurd and stupid! In situations where there is doubt, Mr Tan, you rather believe your doubt. Not that this is wrong, but this really creates inconvenience for genuine reader. Please do not let your lack of sureness of an alleged fact bring inconvenience for the genuine reader. Your skepticism shows your distrust of people. I must say it is time your perceived "reality" (I am not a REAL BW reader) be checked and confirmed!

So, does this long post show I am a genuine REAL BW reader. Do you think the staff/ supporter of Absolute would be so free to reply you with this long story!!!! I just feel it’s unfair! … really annoys me!!!

If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.

[Guest be.fair]

My post was deleted, but that was expected. I saved my post!! … so that I can post it here again!! But I have reword some of my sentences so as to my make my stand and argument clearer! I really hope Mr Henry Tan can post a reply here!!

Hi Moderator Henry Tan, I respect .....

If you tried to doubt everything you would not get as far as doubting anything. The game of doubting itself presupposes certainty.

Err... I thought the so called "deleted posts" of yours were above in post #8 & #11???

It might be good to check before you jump to any conclusion.

Cheers.

[Guest an annoyed BW reader]

Err... I thought the so called "deleted posts" of yours were above in post #8 & #11???

It might be good to check before you jump to any conclusion.

Cheers.

oops... , apologies for my oversight...

see..., I offer apologies for my oversight, unlike .....

Furthermore, Mr Tan transfer my posting here, didn't notice!!

Since they don't bother to reply or check properly, I also don't bother to read properly!!

Why I don't read properly? ... because Mr Henry Tan don't welcome me here!

... deleted my post, suspended my account, so I also don't bother to read properly!!

... sounds like I'm acting like a child, right?

... because Mr Henry Tan treats us like a child! afraid that we would read the wrong things! So, he TAKE CARE of us by deleting HARMFUL posts and get rid of malicious users.

... ... anyway also not very free lah!!

[Guest puzzled]

.. treats us .. that we .. of us

who us?

chill dude!

[ixmog]

Personally, I fully support BW moderator Henry Tan.

Guest can post but if the moderator find the posting inappropriate, he can delete or suspend the member.

Deletion of postings are very common. Don't take it to heart.

Many guests or members are over sensitive or over react to the postings.

Lastly, for Absolute's promotion, it is good to only post one time for all happening events in the coming month but not flood the forum with weekly promotion events.

[Guest F annoyed BW reader]

F u lah if u not happy dun come here lah, want to challenge the mods knn u. u think they are paid to monitor the forum ah? or to answer all ur stupid nonsense??!!

[Guest Guest]

F u lah if u not happy dun come here lah, want to challenge the mods knn u. u think they are paid to monitor the forum ah? or to answer all ur stupid nonsense??!!

... why? unhappy, cannot come? If you unhappy, you can also dun read lah!!

Wah, cannot challenge the mods?? You worship them as god or deities, is it???

If I'm not paid, are u? busy body!!! You also try to monitor!!

[Guest Annoyed]

F u lah if u not happy dun come here lah, want to challenge the mods knn u. u think they are paid to monitor the forum ah? or to answer all ur stupid nonsense??!!

What "F u lah"? ... such unruly behaviour. just shows how ill breed you r!!

.... the results of a bad upbringing!! If you like F so much, F F F F for u!!

[Guest Annoyed]

A. There is a guest & "his friends" who accused us of biasness in deleting guest postings in the Absolute thread.

I have explained our position on deleting of guest-posting in this Absolute Thread on 16 Aug 2009.

I'll repeat that post again.

http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413&view=findpost&p=123722

B. Our REAL Regular BW readers and even Absolute Management, whom I PM an explanation , did NOT object on this position. This arrangement has created peace and UN-Biased sharing of information in this thread.

C. To guest and friends (whose posting I archived), you need to convince me that you are

- a genuine BW reader

- does NOT have Vested Interest (either way)

- have the best interest of the BW forum, our readers and the moderators

at heart.

Based on your postings (which I have deleted/archived), personally I remain skeptical.

D. Status Quo.

Cheers !

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Moderator

This post is in response to Henry Tan’s move to delete posts in this thread.

"I think, therefore I am" (Cogito ergo sum)

Henry Tan wrote: Based on your postings (which I have deleted/archived), personally I remain skeptical.

Mr Henry Tan doubts that a person is not a genuine reader, at least in part, as he thinks he know how a fake reader typically acts and what their posts are like. Mr Tan thinks his general picture of the world is right — or right enough — so that it does provide him with both the grounds for doubt and the means for potentially removing the doubt (i.e. deleting and suspending= getting rid!).

Doubt occurs within the context of things undoubted. If something is doubted, something else must be held fast because doubt presupposes that there are means of removing the doubt. Mr Tan is presupposing that he knows FAKE readers very well. However, while it is the job of the moderator to “watch” the posts, being too subjective in one’s judgment could be detrimental to be the well being and openness of a forum. Ideas (and beliefs), which are based on assumptions (e.g. those who upload one post to talk about a particular topic is suspicious) or emotional beliefs, should be rejected. I strongly doubt that his belief (that I am a fake reader) could not be proved! If he can, he would be amazing! He would be creating “truth”. One needs to note that our senses, assumptions and emotional beliefs could be deceiving at times. Even philosopher Descartes note that the senses have deceived him on some occasions and, he conjectures that it is never prudent to trust what occasionally misleads. We don't have “certain” knowledge of the external world based upon the testimony of our senses. Socrates, who claimed that the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing, frequently said "Skepteon," meaning “we must investigate this”. It does not seem justifiable to infer from subjective experience (of how a fake reader behave) to indubitable propositions about a reality beyond those appearances.

Henry Tan wrote: You BW account was flagged as a "Duplicate Account".

My question: how do you prove this (i.e. something which does not exist)???

Henry Tan wrote: We do not encourage people/organizations to create different BW accounts to talk up particular topics.

My question: I only uploaded one post. Does this equal to “talk up particular topics”?

[castaway]

Duplicate Account can be checked by your PC's IP address. This was already mentioned somewhere in this forum.

Is it correct ?

[Guest Annoyed]

Duplicate Account can be checked by your PC's IP address. This was already mentioned somewhere in this forum.

Is it correct ?

Oooh! ... maybe that's the reason. I had used both personal computers and public computer on this BW forum. Maybe someone else had used the public computer to log in or register as BW member. This explains the same PC's IP address, and thus flagged as duplicate account. Hi moderator Mr Henry Tan, am I right to say this??!! ...but still, I am a genuine reader!! Maybe, can be less rigid on this. How would I how many gay out there are using public computer to log in or register as BW member?? .... wah! I don't know there's so many PLU out there, .... !!!! So, Mr Tan, can my BW account be returned!!!

[Absolute]

Yeah they did, but not like every 5 minutes like u guys! Sometimes too hard sell can really put people off. Why, too fierce competition from "the other" new sauna?

Dear imchaser

Absolute do not advertise like every 5 mins as you claim. Absolute do not advertise anything more frequent or less frequent than the rest of the sauna threads

Its seems as though our thread is full of advertisements and nothing else is because lots of the messengers by various ids has been deleted

Absolute

Absolute Quality & Service Assured

[oralb]

Dear imchaser

Absolute do not advertise like every 5 mins as you claim. Absolute do not advertise anything more frequent or less frequent than the rest of the sauna threads

Its seems as though our thread is full of advertisements and nothing else is because lots of the messengers by various ids has been deleted

Absolute

Absolute Quality & Service Assured

Dear Absolute:

How would you know that "lots of the messengers by various ids" have been deleted?

Oralb

此地无银三百两

[snowball]

the only way i can think of is, various ids = same person

Edited October 9, 2009 by snowball

[camphorwood]

此地无银三百两? not necessarily so!

maybe 土地公？？... stationed around!

They're always?/often? log on to this forum and the other trXXX forum??

There's many possibilities. They are not blind! let us not be so naive!

[HendryTan]

1. Background

This Blowing Wind Forum is started by BlowingWind the man. The Moderators Lungker, OralB and myself are appointed by the man himself. Gachi and Ikutube were co-opted in as the forum grew.

Blowing Wind Gay Forum is a Moderated Forum. While access to the forum is FOC, it is definitely not a public forum. Access and usage of the forum is not an entitlement. The Moderators have prerogative to regulate this forum and, wholly, responsible for its upkeep. The Moderators are not required to bend backwards to serve reader demands.

Over the years the Moderators have built BW Forum into a "trusted" virtual community. As at Oct 09, our counter shows closed to 4K registered forumers. We have also a large group of "un-registered" readers/posters.

For the Moderators, we are unpaid volunteers. All of us have put in a part of our life, making our time and even some monetary contribution into the operation of this forum. We enjoy the sharing, the virtual connection and the comradeship.

2. Blowing Wind and Pink Business

Blowing Wind Forum has always been, and will stay, Pink Business friendly.

Over the years, our readership base grew. Our users are generally more mature in age and have more disposable income. Inevitably, the BW Forum has become a viable marketing platform for aspiring pink business. We have been generous to allow all forms of pink business - massage, saunas, toys, clothings, accessories - to market to our readers. We do NOT charge anything.

Some businesses were polite and asked permission before marketing. Some will contribute to the BW community and offered to sponsor our anniversary gatherings and help to defray our growing operational costs. Other business are more mercenary and just sponge on us. Either way, we let them all maket. However this is also not an entitlement. BW Forum was, and will never be, profit motivated.

3. BW and Appearance of Absolute Sauna (July 08 - June 09)

To write this article, I went back to review most of the articles in Absolute thread on BW.

When Absolute started, they had a hard time marketing themselves as many readers associate them with the ex-"Towel-Club" which had left many readers previously "burnt".

Absolute started its first post on BW on 03 July 2008. They pre-announced the setting out of their new sauna.

The managers of Absolute, in my opinion, are savvy with online marketing. They have latched on to BW as one channel to market their product to the gay community. Let us see some of the techniques that were used.

a. "Stealth" Marketing Techniques Employed - Creating Buzz

i. An example of "stealth" marketing, please refer to these postings at http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413&st=150 .

The UNregistered guests disguised with different name to talk about the new sauna; They do not declare any commercial affiliation of theirs. They start conversations and answer each other's queries. Attention was drawn to new features, new furniture, new themes etc.

The resultant effect is that it creates an impression that there are large number of people interested in the place. A BUZZ is created.

The Moderators know these guests were the same posters as several shared the same IP address. Our record showed this IP address to only appear in Absolute thread and only singing praise. Gachi alerted users to it ie "Newie too", "bird bird", "Guest who", "Talk Cock", "SSS". Several more like lionel, dance-like-no-tmr.

Several registered members like Abang's also alerted : http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413&view=findpost&p=90182

After getting "cornered", one of the ghost-writers admitted that they were the same person : http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413&view=findpost&p=93461

Gachi also spotted that one member (of the gang), happened to use (and too much of a coincidence), the same IP address as Absolute on certain day : http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10413&view=findpost&p=95286

Subsequently, they defended themselves by saying that they were only posting facts. However, such techniques uses an element of deception to "trick" unsophisticated, or trusting readers, in accepting these packaged-facts. I would like to highlight that such "stealth" Marketing techniques are not illegal in Singapore. I see it used online. Ethically, the element of deception to create an illusion with the intention to pursuade readers to certain behaviour is, from the Moderators' view, frowned upon.

Well respected companies and brands generally may not want to employ such deception. In the US, the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) is ruling that some elements of stealth marketing is illegal.

b. Other Patterns and Mob Behaviour

Another pattern of behaviour also emerged.

When some readers raise issues pertaining to "Inconvenient", "Wrong", "Faults", "Dis-satisfaction" at Absolute, a group of guests would immediately come to "correct" these "Wrong/Faults/Dis-satisfaction" information/perception. They offer the "Correct" view.

They will try to say the reader is too demanding, unreasonable, etc. It creates an impression that "many" people don't agree with the inconvenient issues being raised. Sometimes, this virtual group will get verbally aggressive. They have the tendency to become a virtual mob and may get verbally abusive to cow the reader off. This boarders on Cyber Bully behaviour.

c. Why did the Moderators tolerate it ?

We are working adults ourselves. We know that running a startup sauna isn't easy.

The Moderators have generally closed one-eye. We want to give Pink Business room to market their product/services.

4. Absolute (July 09 - Sep 09)

In July 09, Absolute announced their first anniversary celebration. By this time Absolute has grown and made claims to be the #1 gay sauna in Singapore.

Unrelated there is now a new wave of new guests using "stealth" marketing technique at the Absolute thread. Let me call them the Absolute-Supporters. They remind me of those fanatical soccer-club-fans and Andy Lau fan-club members.

Also, around this time, that Keybox was launched and a Keybox thread was started on BW Forum.

While reading the new Keybox thread, I noticed familiar patterns of stealth marketing but with a twist. "Apparent Keybox" patrons were saying things, in Keybox thread. These guest postings appeared to discuss about Keybox BUT keep mentioning the "better" quality folks/stuff/etc that could only be found in Absolute.

The same users (Same IP and same guest name) would then proceed to Absolute thread. This time again using "stealth" technique to sing praises about Absolute. Although I must admit, that their ways of crafting those "indirect" messages are getting better and ingenious.

I know it is a dog-eat-dog world. However, when I find this group of Absolute-Supporters were using "stealth" techniques against other Pink Business and using BW platform for their deception. It violated my sense of fairness. It is, at this time, that I discussed the observation with my other Moderators. I wrote a PM to Absolute to ask Absolute to control their Absolute Supporters from using such decpetive techniques using the BW Forum Platform.

Absolute was silent on my PM. But I did notice that the few IP addresses/ID cross-posting to other sauna threads halted thereafter.

It is also around this time I started cramping down (unannounced) the blatant "stealth" marketing postings in the Absolute thread. Immediately, I received the mob-treatment. The usual pattern of a barrage of guest postings, one after another, all discussing about the deleted post to give support about "biasness" and other allegations. I know it is their response technique, and was already expecting it. However I was still slightly taken aback as I did NOT believe that the Absolute Supporters will want to turn against the generosity of their BW host (the Moderators of the forum), who had opened all available marketing opportunities to Absolute.

Naturally, I was pissed. As the saying goes, "you do NOT bite the hand that previously feed you".

Receiving this mob-treatment first hand also convinced me that been on the receiving end of such hooligan mob behaviour can be quite "alarming" for innocent unexpecting readers. It is an UNacceptable behaviour.

Around this time, it seems there was some internal quality lapses at Absolute Sauna. Some register readers pointed out some maintenance faults. Several other Anti-Absolute guests also appeared and flamed Absolute on their maintenance lapses. The mob responded. Words of war, I stepped in, deleted all guest posting (for and against) and imposed a blanket ban of guest posting in Absolute thread.

I wrote a public post on 16 Aug 09 to ban all guest postings on Absolute thread. For public consumption, I wrote the following

1. I am moderating this Absolute thread very very heavily.

2. I wrote a PM to Absolute a short while back to explain our stand.

I assume they understand the issue.

3. I am currently only allowing postings (positive or negative) in this Absolute thread by SIGNED-IN-READERS whom I am satisfied are REAL BW Readers !

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Moderator

For BW readers, a casual read of the ban notice would have implied that I was supporting Absolute and banning the anti-Absolute guests.

This would save face for everyone. Absolute is, afterall, a "business establishment" and I have tried not to censure them publicly.

This guest ban taunted the anti-Absolute group attack. It also effectively ended the Absolute-Supporter's "stealth" marketing and mob behaviour.

Independently, it seems that Absolute has also embarked on new great marketing banner graphics and launched many new theme parties.

BW Forum continue to share our bandwidth and let Absolute continue to have access to our readers.

It was a happy ending from my point of view.

5. October 2009

I revisited Absolute thread recently and noticed that "stealth" marketing techniques have again re-surfaced, although these are now more subtle. I archived the posts and as expected I was again given the Mob-Treatment I guess the Absolute-Supporters just reacted intuitively. I just re-iterated on the forum the ban that was imposed.,

After the august mob-treatment, I am quite immune now. In fact, I am quite amused by some of the postings.

Finally I also noticed that a few new registered-accounts have already been created and stored, in my opinion, to be used for future "stealth" marketing.

Absolute finally posted a former response and encouraged their Supporters to register an ID on BW.

Absolute also requested for fairness treatment vis a vis other sauna.

6. Fairness

My response on fairness.

a. Exchange of values

From our point, we have facilitated and helped Pink Business. Masseurs, saunas operators have generally benefited from access to our BW community readers. Some of these Pink Business have given back to the BW Community by helping to defray some of our expenses, provided sponsorship during BW anniversaries/events and supported our charity drives. (The Moderators, for the record, have NEVER accepted any personal favours from the Pink Business). Absolute Sauna has never contributed to any of the above.

Absolute has freely tapped on the BW forum, riding on BW Platform and leveraged our readership, during their startup days and published their marketing messages here in various forms and ways at high frequency.

I am amazed that before BW Moderators even consider asking for fairness in this "unbalanced exchange of value" with Absolute, Absolute actually has the audacity to request for "fairness" (albeit in another aspect).

b. Did Absolute Supporters play Fair ?

Absolute Supporters have used unfair practices to hurt other Pink Businesses. I used the analogy of fanatical Soccer Fans. Soccer club cannot directly control them. However, in society, the soccer clubs are still made responsible for their soccer-fans misbehaviour.

c. Respect

Finally while the forum/readers have in many ways supported Absolute (directly or indirectly), I find the mob-behaviour of Absolute Supporters to be extremely disturbing. As I said, I experienced their mob first hand and the feeling was NOT pleasant at all.

Such cyber Mob-behaviour is not acceptable on readers and on the Moderators (your host).

Fairness you demand. But I say start with giving us some respect first.

Hendry Tan

Admin cum Moderator Blowing Wind Forum

[oralb]

It is undeniable that Absolute has use the forum as a means of advertising, it is certain that the group running Absolute is very Internet savvy and no doubt that Absolute has benefited from their marketing tactics in BW forum.

Unfortunately it has come to our attention that the PR efforts on our BW Forum have been overly-aggressive, which led to this discussion.

While we are generally supportive of all pink business, we have our readers' interest in concern. The discussion on Absolute has taken a toll on everyone of us, for example Hendry's time spent on back tracking the earlier postings and writing replies to the demands.

Enough is enough, it has come to a point that we agreed that Absolute with its supporters do not see eye to eye with our beliefs, hence it is best we part our ways.

With immediate effect, BW forum will no longer accept postings or topics discussion on Absolute. All previous topics will be locked and archived. All future topics or posting pertaining to Absolute (be it positive or negative) will be deleted.

We thank them for seeing highly of our forum to placing in promotional effort in the past and we wish them all the best in their endeavors.

p/s: To the annoyed guest who claimed that his account is genuine but was locked, we have no problem unlocking your account and welcoming your contribution, as long as your postings do not violate the above mentioned.